Another Paul Rowe History Mystery
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 1
A 200 Year Old Mass Burial Site in Ho Chi Minh city;
shh! it is meant to be forgotten and a secret.
shh! it is meant to be forgotten and a secret.
1 Feb 2020
I have recently stumbled across a new history mystery.
From the very outset, it held the promise of being
super interesting and supremely difficult to solve.
AN EMPEROR DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT THIS!
(definitely a first for one of my history mysteries.)
This intentionally covered-up event has roots nearly 200 years old,
with a back, back, backstory reaching Genghis Khan.
*
The core of this history mystery is a nearly forgotten (and totally erased) mass burial site
in the heart of Ho Chi Minh City, which contains 1,831 unknown people.
The 1,831 Vietnamese were slain and buried by the emperor of the time
with the intention that the dead remain unknown FOREVER.
*
Question: what event caused such a slaughter?
Question: who were the people slain?
Question: why the cover – up?
From the very outset, it held the promise of being
super interesting and supremely difficult to solve.
AN EMPEROR DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO KNOW ABOUT THIS!
(definitely a first for one of my history mysteries.)
This intentionally covered-up event has roots nearly 200 years old,
with a back, back, backstory reaching Genghis Khan.
*
The core of this history mystery is a nearly forgotten (and totally erased) mass burial site
in the heart of Ho Chi Minh City, which contains 1,831 unknown people.
The 1,831 Vietnamese were slain and buried by the emperor of the time
with the intention that the dead remain unknown FOREVER.
*
Question: what event caused such a slaughter?
Question: who were the people slain?
Question: why the cover – up?
Reading a recent post from Taoist Babe,
which talked of the little-known, creepy, ghost filled area was exciting.
A history mystery which a Vietnamese emperor did not want anyone to solve!
“Challenge accepted,” Paul murmured into his coffee mug.
**
which talked of the little-known, creepy, ghost filled area was exciting.
A history mystery which a Vietnamese emperor did not want anyone to solve!
“Challenge accepted,” Paul murmured into his coffee mug.
**
[[ Those of you who follow my history website, know that I have been busy working on a
history novel/saga, Rice and Blood.
You also know my studio walls are covered in huge timelines from the 1500s to 1945.
One timeline gives me a sense of ‘place’. It is based on the research by Dr. Vu,
The Making of Saigon.
Another is a timeline about the Nguyens in the south. This timeline gives me a sense of ‘who’ and ‘what was happening in the land south of Dia Viet. It is based on research by Dr. Vu, plus
The Tay Son Uprising by George Dutton. ]]
history novel/saga, Rice and Blood.
You also know my studio walls are covered in huge timelines from the 1500s to 1945.
One timeline gives me a sense of ‘place’. It is based on the research by Dr. Vu,
The Making of Saigon.
Another is a timeline about the Nguyens in the south. This timeline gives me a sense of ‘who’ and ‘what was happening in the land south of Dia Viet. It is based on research by Dr. Vu, plus
The Tay Son Uprising by George Dutton. ]]
Back to the history mystery.
I swore to solve the mystery. I got up from my desk, looked at my timelines,
and found 1833 to 1835 as stated in the post.
“mmmm, there it is."
‘1833: Le Van Khoi uses Gia Dinh Citadel to claim himself as king.’
‘1835: It took nearly 3 years for Nguyens to reclaim citadel.’
"mmmm, the people massacred would have been from inside the citadel.
And the very pissed off emperor buried them in such a way,
so as to punish them in this life AND THE NEXT."
"OMG, history mystery solved.
Solved in less than a minute. What a fizzer."
*
HOWEVER, my previous history mystery cases have taught me that a case is never fully ‘solved’.
History refuses to stay the way it was written.
* Long-dead history has the power of resurrection. *
So I am going to continue to write this story up as a history mystery,
and see what is discovered along the way.
It is an extremely exciting bit of recent Vietnamese history which should not be forgotten, and I am SURE it will reveal some new and fascinating bits of Vietnamese history and culture.
**
I swore to solve the mystery. I got up from my desk, looked at my timelines,
and found 1833 to 1835 as stated in the post.
“mmmm, there it is."
‘1833: Le Van Khoi uses Gia Dinh Citadel to claim himself as king.’
‘1835: It took nearly 3 years for Nguyens to reclaim citadel.’
"mmmm, the people massacred would have been from inside the citadel.
And the very pissed off emperor buried them in such a way,
so as to punish them in this life AND THE NEXT."
"OMG, history mystery solved.
Solved in less than a minute. What a fizzer."
*
HOWEVER, my previous history mystery cases have taught me that a case is never fully ‘solved’.
History refuses to stay the way it was written.
* Long-dead history has the power of resurrection. *
So I am going to continue to write this story up as a history mystery,
and see what is discovered along the way.
It is an extremely exciting bit of recent Vietnamese history which should not be forgotten, and I am SURE it will reveal some new and fascinating bits of Vietnamese history and culture.
**
This one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
5 Feb 2020
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 2
So I continue writing and digging.
The rebellion referred to by Taoist Babe was massive and audacious.
Back story: (A quick shout-out to Phineas and Ferb for making the story tellers’ notion of ‘back story’ universally understandable.)
During the Monsoon Wars (late 1770s to 1800), a fitful, string of bloody battles between the Nguyens and the Tay Sons' Hissing Army, the Nguyens set up a temporary ‘royal’ capital in Ben Nghe (to become Gia Dinh, Siagon, HCMC) on the banks of the Don Nai River (to become the Saigon River). The royal capital included the Turtle Citadel (to become Gia Dinh Citadel).
The rebellion referred to by Taoist Babe was massive and audacious.
Back story: (A quick shout-out to Phineas and Ferb for making the story tellers’ notion of ‘back story’ universally understandable.)
During the Monsoon Wars (late 1770s to 1800), a fitful, string of bloody battles between the Nguyens and the Tay Sons' Hissing Army, the Nguyens set up a temporary ‘royal’ capital in Ben Nghe (to become Gia Dinh, Siagon, HCMC) on the banks of the Don Nai River (to become the Saigon River). The royal capital included the Turtle Citadel (to become Gia Dinh Citadel).
The Nguyens needed to build the Turtle Citadel;
~ for protection from the Tay Son army and navy,
~ to legitimize their ‘ownership’ of the region, and
~ to store valuable rice which was collected as tax.
Rice-tax gave the Nguyens enough wealth to carry out their political plans.
The citadel was massive. Each wall was 1.2 kilometres long.
Inside the citadel, behind the safety of the tall walls, was space for
the royal residence, military requirements, gardens, farms, a canal system,
and everything for the town population to work and live.
The citadel was so large that each wall need two gates to be practical.
**
~ for protection from the Tay Son army and navy,
~ to legitimize their ‘ownership’ of the region, and
~ to store valuable rice which was collected as tax.
Rice-tax gave the Nguyens enough wealth to carry out their political plans.
The citadel was massive. Each wall was 1.2 kilometres long.
Inside the citadel, behind the safety of the tall walls, was space for
the royal residence, military requirements, gardens, farms, a canal system,
and everything for the town population to work and live.
The citadel was so large that each wall need two gates to be practical.
**
The devastating Monsoon Wars raged for 30 long years.
Eventually in 1802, the Nguyens overcame the Tay Sons and other assorted warlords, vagabonds, bandits and pirates, and unified Dia Viet with a mish-mash of southern regions, and created the Vietnam we know today.
The emperor, now renamed Gia Long,
moved his royal capital back to the beautiful royal city of Hue.
The emperor, now renamed Gia Long,
moved his royal capital back to the beautiful royal city of Hue.
Emperor Gia Long handed the responsibility of Ben Nghe (by then called Gia Dinh)
and the Gia Dinh Citadel over to Viceroy Le Van Khoi.
and the Gia Dinh Citadel over to Viceroy Le Van Khoi.
Controlling large, powerful citadels can mess with the heads of ambitious people.
And so it was with Viceroy Khoi.
Eventually he gave into the temptation and declared himself king. (My guess is at the same time he ceased forwarding collected tax revenue to the emperor. Oh! The very same greedy strategy used by the Nguyens 200 years previously. Karma?)
The Viceroy/wanna-be-king knew that he would have to answer to Emperor Minh Mang (Gia Long's son) eventually, so he built the citadel’s walls even higher. Ultimately this did not help him.
However, the Viceroy/ pretend-king did put up a decent fight.
It took three years for the emperor to regain his citadel.
**
Three years seems like a long time to re-take your own citadel. (Just saying. I have never re-taken a citadel, but ….) I have no decent literature on the battle (the disadvantage of not being able to read Vietnamese), and I do not have much faith in colonial writings and renditions of Vietnamese history.
***
[[ The following is pure speculation.
Let’s try and think this three year battle through.
Why did it take so long?
~ Maybe the emperor was not that concerned about one rogue trading town.
This town was a major trading port which had a citadel and a tax collecting Viceroy. Gia Dinh Prefecture was probably Vietnam’s wealthiest region. I am sure the emperor wanted every dong of his tax money.
~ Vietnam (yes, it was finally called Vietnam by then) was relatively peaceful from 1802 onward. Could the Nguyen army and navy had been reduced in numbers?
~ The citadel was far too large to lay siege to. It was a working town with a wall around it. The citadel was self-sufficient. As a bonus, the gigantic royal rice-granary was near full. When the granary was set alight during the battle, it was still smoldering three years later. That is a lot of rice.
~ Was the local population, living outside the citadel unfriendly towards the Nguyens?
The Nguyens were infamous for tax gouging. If this was so, then it may have been impossible to set up a decent long-term base camp near the citadel.
~ Was the Nguyen army/navy forced to return to Monsoon Wars conditions? Were they at the mercy of the direction and timing of the coastal monsoon winds?
Speculation finished. ]]
And so it was with Viceroy Khoi.
Eventually he gave into the temptation and declared himself king. (My guess is at the same time he ceased forwarding collected tax revenue to the emperor. Oh! The very same greedy strategy used by the Nguyens 200 years previously. Karma?)
The Viceroy/wanna-be-king knew that he would have to answer to Emperor Minh Mang (Gia Long's son) eventually, so he built the citadel’s walls even higher. Ultimately this did not help him.
However, the Viceroy/ pretend-king did put up a decent fight.
It took three years for the emperor to regain his citadel.
**
Three years seems like a long time to re-take your own citadel. (Just saying. I have never re-taken a citadel, but ….) I have no decent literature on the battle (the disadvantage of not being able to read Vietnamese), and I do not have much faith in colonial writings and renditions of Vietnamese history.
***
[[ The following is pure speculation.
Let’s try and think this three year battle through.
Why did it take so long?
~ Maybe the emperor was not that concerned about one rogue trading town.
This town was a major trading port which had a citadel and a tax collecting Viceroy. Gia Dinh Prefecture was probably Vietnam’s wealthiest region. I am sure the emperor wanted every dong of his tax money.
~ Vietnam (yes, it was finally called Vietnam by then) was relatively peaceful from 1802 onward. Could the Nguyen army and navy had been reduced in numbers?
~ The citadel was far too large to lay siege to. It was a working town with a wall around it. The citadel was self-sufficient. As a bonus, the gigantic royal rice-granary was near full. When the granary was set alight during the battle, it was still smoldering three years later. That is a lot of rice.
~ Was the local population, living outside the citadel unfriendly towards the Nguyens?
The Nguyens were infamous for tax gouging. If this was so, then it may have been impossible to set up a decent long-term base camp near the citadel.
~ Was the Nguyen army/navy forced to return to Monsoon Wars conditions? Were they at the mercy of the direction and timing of the coastal monsoon winds?
Speculation finished. ]]
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 3
6 Feb 2020
A couple of grim things to ponder:
1. 1,831 is a very exact number. The number screams out, “I am the writer of the document, I know exactly how many people died. That means I know WHO died too. And I am not telling anyone! No one defies with the emperor. Suffer the punishment!”
*
Viets are at heart, are a fusion of animists and ancestor worshipers. For ancestor worship to work families need complete bodies of recently dead family members. Rituals need to be carried out to ensure the recently dead family member stays in the family as a dead member (an ancestor) of the family. The ancestors can help the living family members. This ensures the growth of the family into a strong family.
Not to have a body to ritualize means the future living family will be weak.
*
To kill 1,831 people and then intentionally blur where they were buried, punished the 1,831 people, PLUS THEIR FAMILIES for at least three more generations.
Emperor Minh Mang was very pissed off!
2. 1,831 was a tiny percentage of the citadel’s total population. Were they the officials and families, or just the last 1,831 poor souls caught trying to escape?
**
**
That was grim. Let’s lighten the mood.
1. 1,831 is a very exact number. The number screams out, “I am the writer of the document, I know exactly how many people died. That means I know WHO died too. And I am not telling anyone! No one defies with the emperor. Suffer the punishment!”
*
Viets are at heart, are a fusion of animists and ancestor worshipers. For ancestor worship to work families need complete bodies of recently dead family members. Rituals need to be carried out to ensure the recently dead family member stays in the family as a dead member (an ancestor) of the family. The ancestors can help the living family members. This ensures the growth of the family into a strong family.
Not to have a body to ritualize means the future living family will be weak.
*
To kill 1,831 people and then intentionally blur where they were buried, punished the 1,831 people, PLUS THEIR FAMILIES for at least three more generations.
Emperor Minh Mang was very pissed off!
2. 1,831 was a tiny percentage of the citadel’s total population. Were they the officials and families, or just the last 1,831 poor souls caught trying to escape?
**
**
That was grim. Let’s lighten the mood.
A much lighter thing to ponder:
This is something I researched for ‘Rice and Blood’. It was unintentional, but don’t tell anyone.
It was early evening and I was working on the chapter where the emperor is trying in vain, to regain Gia Dinh Citadel from Viceroy Khoi.
I was on my back verandah. The crickets were chirping, bats swooping and diving over the rice fields and the Long Hai Mountains were fading in the distance. A small smoky fire kept the mossies at bay. Apart from Peter the Rottweiler, and my beer, I was alone on my farm.
I needed to describe the burning of the royal rice-granary. I had been inside an ancient granary on Long Son Island near Vung Tau island. A traditional granary is made of thick, rough, hand-sawn planks. I could describe that. But how does grain burn? Very well, I would imagine.
As luck would have it, I had six hands of drying rice tied to the rafters of my rear verandah.
I grabbed one of the hands and popped it on the small fire, expecting a fierce, short-lived fire. I was so wrong.
When the hand of rice heated up it exploded! All of a sudden, there were hundreds of large, fluffy, white pieces of popped-rice floating in the air. What the ….!!!
I made a bigger fire in my back yard near the pond. I put the five remaining hands of rice in a smallish, sturdy corrugated cardboard box and taped the top of the box firmly shut. I was going to do some scientific research.
I placed the box (my royal granary full of royal rice-tax forcibly collected from hard-working peasants) on top of fire. I retreated back to the verandah and waited.
The rice exploded out of the box. The expanding rice grains forced the box apart. The heat of the flames caused up-draughts, and the light puffs of expanded rice swirled up into the night sky. It snowed popped-rice all across my backyard, my pond and well out into the adjoining rice fields.
*
Imagine if you will, the gigantic royal rice granary in the citadel; it is 1835. The granary was filled with who knows how many tons of rice. The tinder dry, wooden building was burning fiercely. The mountain of rice heated up ....
The snow storm of popped-rice must have been EPIC!! It would have drifted for miles.
What a bizarre scene; the citadel, the former palace, the barracks, the river, the boats, the houses, the fields, the fish ponds, the temples, the tea houses, covered in fluffy, white popped-rice. It may have kept popping for weeks.
(A quick shout out to the Myth Busters. “Thanks, now that’s what I’m talking about!”)
This is something I researched for ‘Rice and Blood’. It was unintentional, but don’t tell anyone.
It was early evening and I was working on the chapter where the emperor is trying in vain, to regain Gia Dinh Citadel from Viceroy Khoi.
I was on my back verandah. The crickets were chirping, bats swooping and diving over the rice fields and the Long Hai Mountains were fading in the distance. A small smoky fire kept the mossies at bay. Apart from Peter the Rottweiler, and my beer, I was alone on my farm.
I needed to describe the burning of the royal rice-granary. I had been inside an ancient granary on Long Son Island near Vung Tau island. A traditional granary is made of thick, rough, hand-sawn planks. I could describe that. But how does grain burn? Very well, I would imagine.
As luck would have it, I had six hands of drying rice tied to the rafters of my rear verandah.
I grabbed one of the hands and popped it on the small fire, expecting a fierce, short-lived fire. I was so wrong.
When the hand of rice heated up it exploded! All of a sudden, there were hundreds of large, fluffy, white pieces of popped-rice floating in the air. What the ….!!!
I made a bigger fire in my back yard near the pond. I put the five remaining hands of rice in a smallish, sturdy corrugated cardboard box and taped the top of the box firmly shut. I was going to do some scientific research.
I placed the box (my royal granary full of royal rice-tax forcibly collected from hard-working peasants) on top of fire. I retreated back to the verandah and waited.
The rice exploded out of the box. The expanding rice grains forced the box apart. The heat of the flames caused up-draughts, and the light puffs of expanded rice swirled up into the night sky. It snowed popped-rice all across my backyard, my pond and well out into the adjoining rice fields.
*
Imagine if you will, the gigantic royal rice granary in the citadel; it is 1835. The granary was filled with who knows how many tons of rice. The tinder dry, wooden building was burning fiercely. The mountain of rice heated up ....
The snow storm of popped-rice must have been EPIC!! It would have drifted for miles.
What a bizarre scene; the citadel, the former palace, the barracks, the river, the boats, the houses, the fields, the fish ponds, the temples, the tea houses, covered in fluffy, white popped-rice. It may have kept popping for weeks.
(A quick shout out to the Myth Busters. “Thanks, now that’s what I’m talking about!”)
This is one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 4
7 Feb 2020
Even the most cursory research is revealing that there is MUCH MORE to this 200 year old murder mystery.
The three year battle between Viceroy Le Van Khoi and Emperor Minh Mang has a twist.
Viceroy Khoi, the leader, was killed only a year and a half into the rebellion.
Leadership was handed over to Le Van Cu, Le Van Khoi's son, a FOUR YEAR OLD BOY. (Some documents say Le Van Cua; 4, 7, 8 years old.)
The three year battle between Viceroy Le Van Khoi and Emperor Minh Mang has a twist.
Viceroy Khoi, the leader, was killed only a year and a half into the rebellion.
Leadership was handed over to Le Van Cu, Le Van Khoi's son, a FOUR YEAR OLD BOY. (Some documents say Le Van Cua; 4, 7, 8 years old.)
Deduction: this was no peasant uprising.
I mentioned previously that Viceroy Le Van Khoi had declared himself king.
Was what happened between 1833 and 1835 nothing less than a dynastic battle?
Young Cu was NOT a proven warrior/leader, he was next in line for the crown.
Taoist Babe’s post talks of children being slain.
Do we now have a name of one of those children; Le Van Cu?
**
I mentioned previously that Viceroy Le Van Khoi had declared himself king.
Was what happened between 1833 and 1835 nothing less than a dynastic battle?
Young Cu was NOT a proven warrior/leader, he was next in line for the crown.
Taoist Babe’s post talks of children being slain.
Do we now have a name of one of those children; Le Van Cu?
**
**
Taoist Babe’s article also mentioned the prolonged stink of death (a month).
My neighbours in Long Phuoc Village, just north of Vung Tau island, had to deal with the process of a mass burial after the Battle of Long Tan, 1966.
The Battle of Long Tan finished as the sun was setting (approx.), and according to the farmers, the burial process (all done in the dark) was finished by the next morning.
Farmers who chatted with me about this, all mentioned that they must have buried around 1,000 soldiers. Some Australian soldiers suggested that large bomb craters may have been used as burial pits. The farmers did not mention a prolonged stench over their area.
Deduction: This tells us that the killings at Gia Dinh may have been carried out over a prolonged time.
**
Taoist Babe’s article also mentioned the prolonged stink of death (a month).
My neighbours in Long Phuoc Village, just north of Vung Tau island, had to deal with the process of a mass burial after the Battle of Long Tan, 1966.
The Battle of Long Tan finished as the sun was setting (approx.), and according to the farmers, the burial process (all done in the dark) was finished by the next morning.
Farmers who chatted with me about this, all mentioned that they must have buried around 1,000 soldiers. Some Australian soldiers suggested that large bomb craters may have been used as burial pits. The farmers did not mention a prolonged stench over their area.
Deduction: This tells us that the killings at Gia Dinh may have been carried out over a prolonged time.
**
Let’s now try and make some sense of the POSITION of the mass burial site.
[[ The following is pure conjecture/speculation/an educated guess. (Do not miss out on the fun! Email me your theories and thoughts.)
[[ The following is pure conjecture/speculation/an educated guess. (Do not miss out on the fun! Email me your theories and thoughts.)
The above map shows the mass burial site in relation to Gia Dinh Citadel; west.
The above map shows the mass burial site in relation to Gia Dinh trading port, the citadel, and geographical features.
The citadel sits surrounded by the Don Nai River (the Saigon River) to the east,
Ben Nghe creek (the original Saigon River) to the south,
the Thi Nghe creek, plus an ancient earthen defensive wall to the north,
and swampland to the southwest.
Three possible reasons for the site of the mass burial site.
First possibility:
All the natural features which surrounded the Gia Dinh Citadel were designed to make it difficult for enemies to attack the citadel. However, they may have also limited the number of escape routes for those trying to flee from the citadel.
As seen in the map above, the only direction that offered escape was through the jungle trails to the west of the citadel. Escape was probably through the gates in the north-west corner of the citadel.
Did the emperor’s soldiers set-up an on-going ambush at the few jungle trails,
and kill the ‘royals’ and their supporters as they fled?
Any escape plan could have been ad hoc,
and escapees may have fled across days or even weeks.
Second possibility:
A very practical solution could have been the reason for the positioning of the mass burial site.
The least populated space in Gia Dinh was the area west of the citadel.
The roads on the map most likely border with the jungle (tigers and all). The seclusion would have been ideal for a secret, unknown mass burial site. The tropical jungle would have taken care of that very quickly.
Speculation: The Nguyen soldiers dug a shallow pit (according to Taoist Babe’s report the pit was shallow). Across a prolonged period, days or even weeks, the bodies from the citadel were transported to the site. The soldiers were too slack to cover the bodies with dirt as the corpses were dumped in the pit (that might have meant having to dig more pits), and the stench of death took hold of the entire Gia Dinh area.
Third possibility:
The reason for the position of the secret site may have been extremely simple.
The area chosen was already part of a vast unruly cemetery. This cemetery is much older than the citadel. In 1777 the Tay Sons captured Ben Nghe (became Saigon); bodies had to be buried somewhere. In 1782 the Tay Sons massacred the Chinese traders in original Saigon (became Cho Lon). Thousands (maybe tens of thousands) needed to be buried outside of Ben Nghe. When the French arrived, they called the colossal cemetery The Plain of Tombs.
The citadel sits surrounded by the Don Nai River (the Saigon River) to the east,
Ben Nghe creek (the original Saigon River) to the south,
the Thi Nghe creek, plus an ancient earthen defensive wall to the north,
and swampland to the southwest.
Three possible reasons for the site of the mass burial site.
First possibility:
All the natural features which surrounded the Gia Dinh Citadel were designed to make it difficult for enemies to attack the citadel. However, they may have also limited the number of escape routes for those trying to flee from the citadel.
As seen in the map above, the only direction that offered escape was through the jungle trails to the west of the citadel. Escape was probably through the gates in the north-west corner of the citadel.
Did the emperor’s soldiers set-up an on-going ambush at the few jungle trails,
and kill the ‘royals’ and their supporters as they fled?
Any escape plan could have been ad hoc,
and escapees may have fled across days or even weeks.
Second possibility:
A very practical solution could have been the reason for the positioning of the mass burial site.
The least populated space in Gia Dinh was the area west of the citadel.
The roads on the map most likely border with the jungle (tigers and all). The seclusion would have been ideal for a secret, unknown mass burial site. The tropical jungle would have taken care of that very quickly.
Speculation: The Nguyen soldiers dug a shallow pit (according to Taoist Babe’s report the pit was shallow). Across a prolonged period, days or even weeks, the bodies from the citadel were transported to the site. The soldiers were too slack to cover the bodies with dirt as the corpses were dumped in the pit (that might have meant having to dig more pits), and the stench of death took hold of the entire Gia Dinh area.
Third possibility:
The reason for the position of the secret site may have been extremely simple.
The area chosen was already part of a vast unruly cemetery. This cemetery is much older than the citadel. In 1777 the Tay Sons captured Ben Nghe (became Saigon); bodies had to be buried somewhere. In 1782 the Tay Sons massacred the Chinese traders in original Saigon (became Cho Lon). Thousands (maybe tens of thousands) needed to be buried outside of Ben Nghe. When the French arrived, they called the colossal cemetery The Plain of Tombs.
Who is going to notice 1,831 more bodies in such a vast over run cemetery?
**
**
This is one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 5
8 Feb 2020
Yesterday I thought I had found a name of one of the ‘unknowns’ in the mass burial site in the heart of Ho Chi Minh city.
I proposed that the young leader/ruler, Le Van Cu, had met his fate there.
Further research finds I was wrong in that regard. It appears that six leaders of the rebellion/dynastic take-over, or what-ever-it-was were taken to Hue.
Hue at that time was the capital city of the relatively new nation of Vietnam. It was also the Imperial City where Emperor Minh Mang resided.
I proposed that the young leader/ruler, Le Van Cu, had met his fate there.
Further research finds I was wrong in that regard. It appears that six leaders of the rebellion/dynastic take-over, or what-ever-it-was were taken to Hue.
Hue at that time was the capital city of the relatively new nation of Vietnam. It was also the Imperial City where Emperor Minh Mang resided.
Among the six captives taken to Hue was the boy leader Cu (by this time he was around 7 years old).
There was ”also the French missionary Father Joseph Marchand, of the Paris Foreign Missions Society. Marchand had apparently been supporting the cause of Le Van Khoi” [Chapuis, A History of Vietnam, p.191.).
Some articles say the prisoners were taken to be tried before the emperor. Others get straight to the point; “Father Marchand was tortured and executed on November 5, 1835, as was the child Le Van Cu” [Chapuis, p.192].
There was ”also the French missionary Father Joseph Marchand, of the Paris Foreign Missions Society. Marchand had apparently been supporting the cause of Le Van Khoi” [Chapuis, A History of Vietnam, p.191.).
Some articles say the prisoners were taken to be tried before the emperor. Others get straight to the point; “Father Marchand was tortured and executed on November 5, 1835, as was the child Le Van Cu” [Chapuis, p.192].
This rebellion is often written up as a Catholic up rising.
[I know I have said this before, but I am wary of colonialists’ accounts. Especially early catholic writings. They had a lot to lose or gain. They had huge agendas, and time exaggerates the actions of martyrs.]
One writing states that all six leaders were executed in Hue. So it makes sense that they are all probably buried there too.
So the little boy, Cu, was not buried in the intentionally unmarked mass burial site which is under Ho Chi Minh city. He is not one of the 1,831 unknown souls.
**
[I know I have said this before, but I am wary of colonialists’ accounts. Especially early catholic writings. They had a lot to lose or gain. They had huge agendas, and time exaggerates the actions of martyrs.]
One writing states that all six leaders were executed in Hue. So it makes sense that they are all probably buried there too.
So the little boy, Cu, was not buried in the intentionally unmarked mass burial site which is under Ho Chi Minh city. He is not one of the 1,831 unknown souls.
**
Way back at the beginning of this history mystery, I stated that there is a lot to learned from this ‘solved’ mystery. I would still like to look into a few more aspects and side-issues.
So you can see, there is still a lot to learn from this cold-case history mystery.
**
- An outline of the build-up to the rebellion – there are many versions.
- The colonial trilogy (plus Jesuits), and why I am automatically suspicious of colonialists’ accounts. The problem (for me) with early catholic missionaries to Vietnam.
- The importance of the complete body in ancestor worship. An indication of how angry Emperor Minh Mang was.
- I want to visit and photograph the 1802 temple, which was purposely built in the heart of the Plain of Tombs, and which now tries to offer solace to the 1,831 wandering, hungry spirits of the unknown.
- Provide a current day walking map to this area and the old shrine.
So you can see, there is still a lot to learn from this cold-case history mystery.
**
This is one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 6
10 Feb 2020
When I was initially reading Taoist Babe’s article,
I was making a mental-list of the usual suspects;
~ royals,
~Catholics
~ peasant traders
I should have had more confidence in my gut-feelings on this matter.
A little more reading bears-out that I was spot on!
Whoever wrote the accounts of this revolt,
made themselves to be the key stakeholders and initiators of the rebellion.
CATHOLICS
If you read a book about this subject written by a Catholic, it was a Catholic uprising.
The leader, Father Marchand, was a Catholic. The followers were Catholics.
Their reason for the uprising; Emperor Minh Mang’s persecution of Catholics.
So, in 1833 the Catholics under Father Marchand,
holed up in Gia Dinh Citadel causing a ruckus for three years.
Thousands of them were executed so that they could practice Catholicism, really?
This sounds off to me.
The Catholics had a history of rabble-rousing ever since they got kicked out of Japan and China, and washed up on the beach at Da Nang. Yes, Catholics were killed across this period (some of them by the emperor); but a limited number of Catholics taking on the emperor’s army and navy?
I don’t think so.
I was making a mental-list of the usual suspects;
~ royals,
~Catholics
~ peasant traders
I should have had more confidence in my gut-feelings on this matter.
A little more reading bears-out that I was spot on!
Whoever wrote the accounts of this revolt,
made themselves to be the key stakeholders and initiators of the rebellion.
CATHOLICS
If you read a book about this subject written by a Catholic, it was a Catholic uprising.
The leader, Father Marchand, was a Catholic. The followers were Catholics.
Their reason for the uprising; Emperor Minh Mang’s persecution of Catholics.
So, in 1833 the Catholics under Father Marchand,
holed up in Gia Dinh Citadel causing a ruckus for three years.
Thousands of them were executed so that they could practice Catholicism, really?
This sounds off to me.
The Catholics had a history of rabble-rousing ever since they got kicked out of Japan and China, and washed up on the beach at Da Nang. Yes, Catholics were killed across this period (some of them by the emperor); but a limited number of Catholics taking on the emperor’s army and navy?
I don’t think so.
PEASANT TRADERS (a huge percentage of peasant traders in Gia Dinh Prefecture were Chinese immigrants;
tens of thousands of them in Cho Lon, next door to Gia Dinh town. The heading should read,
CHINESE TRADERS
If you read a book about this subject written by a Chinese, it was a Chinese uprising.
The leader, Luu Tin, was a Chinese. The followers were Chinese.
Their reason for the uprising; Emperor Minh Mang’s persecution of Chinese traders (taxes and business limitations edicts).
So, in 1833 the Chinese under Luu Tin,
holed up in Gia Dinh Citadel, causing a ruckus for three years.
Thousands of them were executed trying to get a tax break, really?
This also sounds off to me.
Chinese have a long history of avoiding violence whenever possible.
I am sure thousands of Chinese were killed between 1833-35; but a limited number of Chinese willing to take on the emperor’s army and navy?
Again, I don’t think so.
tens of thousands of them in Cho Lon, next door to Gia Dinh town. The heading should read,
CHINESE TRADERS
If you read a book about this subject written by a Chinese, it was a Chinese uprising.
The leader, Luu Tin, was a Chinese. The followers were Chinese.
Their reason for the uprising; Emperor Minh Mang’s persecution of Chinese traders (taxes and business limitations edicts).
So, in 1833 the Chinese under Luu Tin,
holed up in Gia Dinh Citadel, causing a ruckus for three years.
Thousands of them were executed trying to get a tax break, really?
This also sounds off to me.
Chinese have a long history of avoiding violence whenever possible.
I am sure thousands of Chinese were killed between 1833-35; but a limited number of Chinese willing to take on the emperor’s army and navy?
Again, I don’t think so.
I suspect there is more to this story. MUCH MORE !
**
**
What on earth was happening across 1833-35?
*
I believe the Catholics and the Chinese were in the revolt/rebellion/battle. I think they combined forces to take on ‘someone’ over ‘something’.
Did the Catholics and Chinese really believe Emperor Minh Mang would give up Gia Dinh Prefecture and the Mekong delta; the richest region in all Vietnam?
The only possible end-game for that struggle, was if they took ALL of Vietnam and wiped out the Nguyens. Ridiculous!
The Catholics seemed to thrive on a little persecution; it made them look like they were doing their job. But, they did not need a full blown, country-wide war.
For the Chinese traders, the tax and business limitations issues were mainly a Gia Dinh (Saigon) issue. What would be gained by conquering the central and northern regions of Vietnam?
Vietnam was just 30 years out of the devastating Monsoon Wars.
I find it hard to believe that the Chinese or the Catholics (both minorities) could have convinced the Vietnam population that another major punch-up was a good thing.
Again, what was happening?
*
I believe the Catholics and the Chinese were in the revolt/rebellion/battle. I think they combined forces to take on ‘someone’ over ‘something’.
Did the Catholics and Chinese really believe Emperor Minh Mang would give up Gia Dinh Prefecture and the Mekong delta; the richest region in all Vietnam?
The only possible end-game for that struggle, was if they took ALL of Vietnam and wiped out the Nguyens. Ridiculous!
The Catholics seemed to thrive on a little persecution; it made them look like they were doing their job. But, they did not need a full blown, country-wide war.
For the Chinese traders, the tax and business limitations issues were mainly a Gia Dinh (Saigon) issue. What would be gained by conquering the central and northern regions of Vietnam?
Vietnam was just 30 years out of the devastating Monsoon Wars.
I find it hard to believe that the Chinese or the Catholics (both minorities) could have convinced the Vietnam population that another major punch-up was a good thing.
Again, what was happening?
There had to be a third player.
There was:
ROYALS
Royals and wanna-be royals are happy to play the long game.
They are happy to use others to die for their ‘noble’ cause.
Evidence of 'royal' involvement:
~ Le Van Khoi had declared himself king.
~ When Le Van Khoi was killed in battle, HIS SON succeeded him.
Who puts a 4 year old boy in-charge of a revolt? Rubbish!
~ The harsh, over-the-top royal punishment was meant to fit the crime and ensure that the Le family was never a threat again. It was also a lesson to other ambitious observers.
[Emperor Minh Mang had dealt with law breaking Catholics before. When the crime warranted it, he executed them. However, in those few cases, he had the Catholics strangled, not cut to pieces. That meant their families could have the whole body for any rituals needed. The emperor in those cases was not punishing the Catholics’ families also.]
** The Gia Dinh Citadel battle of 1833-35 smacks of royal deviousness. **
There was:
ROYALS
Royals and wanna-be royals are happy to play the long game.
They are happy to use others to die for their ‘noble’ cause.
Evidence of 'royal' involvement:
~ Le Van Khoi had declared himself king.
~ When Le Van Khoi was killed in battle, HIS SON succeeded him.
Who puts a 4 year old boy in-charge of a revolt? Rubbish!
~ The harsh, over-the-top royal punishment was meant to fit the crime and ensure that the Le family was never a threat again. It was also a lesson to other ambitious observers.
[Emperor Minh Mang had dealt with law breaking Catholics before. When the crime warranted it, he executed them. However, in those few cases, he had the Catholics strangled, not cut to pieces. That meant their families could have the whole body for any rituals needed. The emperor in those cases was not punishing the Catholics’ families also.]
** The Gia Dinh Citadel battle of 1833-35 smacks of royal deviousness. **
This one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 7
12 Feb 2020
It took a lot of reading and dedicated detective work to find half a line;
it strengthens my gut-feeling about ‘royal’ deviousness as the motive.
“Luu Tin … the Chinese adopted son of Le Van Duyet” (Water Frontier, Cooke and Tana, 2004. p.96)
Luu Tin, the supposed Chinese trader leader, was actually Le Van Khoi’s BROTHER!
This was a family affair; a royal family – a wanna-be royal family affair.
*
it strengthens my gut-feeling about ‘royal’ deviousness as the motive.
“Luu Tin … the Chinese adopted son of Le Van Duyet” (Water Frontier, Cooke and Tana, 2004. p.96)
Luu Tin, the supposed Chinese trader leader, was actually Le Van Khoi’s BROTHER!
This was a family affair; a royal family – a wanna-be royal family affair.
*
Backstory: As I dig deeper, there is a name which keeps popping up more, and more.
Initially I thought it strange because he died before this uprising.
The name is Le Van Duyet (This morning I saw a portrait of him in the 1802 shrine for lost souls).
Le Van Duyet was Emperor Gia Long’s favourite general; he was extremely powerful.
.
Le Van Duyet had two adopted son’s.
1. Le Van Khoi, and 2. Luu Tin (Chinese) Le Van Yen (Vietnamese name)
*
Initially I thought it strange because he died before this uprising.
The name is Le Van Duyet (This morning I saw a portrait of him in the 1802 shrine for lost souls).
Le Van Duyet was Emperor Gia Long’s favourite general; he was extremely powerful.
.
Le Van Duyet had two adopted son’s.
1. Le Van Khoi, and 2. Luu Tin (Chinese) Le Van Yen (Vietnamese name)
*
Why would Le Van Khoi think he is of a royal line?
~ His father was given the power of the Emperor to rule the area south of Hue,
by the first Nguyen Emperor of Vietnam.
~ Emperor Minh Mang gave Khoi’s dad a jade belt; a gift usually only given to emperors.
~ Emperor Minh Mang gave Khoi’s brother, Le Van Yen (Luu Tin), the gift of princess Ngoc Nghien, a daughter of Gia Long (Huỳnh Minh, 2006, Gia Định Xưa, p. 131). A future royal bloodline.
by the first Nguyen Emperor of Vietnam.
~ Emperor Minh Mang gave Khoi’s dad a jade belt; a gift usually only given to emperors.
~ Emperor Minh Mang gave Khoi’s brother, Le Van Yen (Luu Tin), the gift of princess Ngoc Nghien, a daughter of Gia Long (Huỳnh Minh, 2006, Gia Định Xưa, p. 131). A future royal bloodline.
The sons appear to have been using their dad’s former power and influence
to start their own dynasty.
They had obviously been raised in the presence of awesome power,
and were convinced that they deserved more.
Side note: The Le boys were simply following the Nguyen family’s dynastic start-up model; same place, 30 years on. The Le boys even sought help from the King of Siam (as did young Nguyen Phuc An after his family had been massacred).
Reminder alert: Nguyen Phuc An was the birth name of Emperor Gia Long.
The wanna-be royal family would have coerced the Catholics and the Chinese
to rally against Emperor Minh Mang.
If things had gone to plan, at the end of prolonged bloodshed,
the Le family would have been the ultimate winners,
and the Catholics and Chinese would have served as cannon fodder to achieve the royal goal.
In short, from 1833 – 35 was an attempted royal take over by a wanna-be 'royal' family.
It did not end well for the wanna-be family.
The schematic below highlights the main actants and the outcome; The Creepy, Spooky Place.
to start their own dynasty.
They had obviously been raised in the presence of awesome power,
and were convinced that they deserved more.
Side note: The Le boys were simply following the Nguyen family’s dynastic start-up model; same place, 30 years on. The Le boys even sought help from the King of Siam (as did young Nguyen Phuc An after his family had been massacred).
Reminder alert: Nguyen Phuc An was the birth name of Emperor Gia Long.
The wanna-be royal family would have coerced the Catholics and the Chinese
to rally against Emperor Minh Mang.
If things had gone to plan, at the end of prolonged bloodshed,
the Le family would have been the ultimate winners,
and the Catholics and Chinese would have served as cannon fodder to achieve the royal goal.
In short, from 1833 – 35 was an attempted royal take over by a wanna-be 'royal' family.
It did not end well for the wanna-be family.
The schematic below highlights the main actants and the outcome; The Creepy, Spooky Place.
This is one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 8
13 Feb 2020
We have uncovered a considerable amount of evidence while developing this case.
I think we have enough information now, to have a better idea of what caused the creepy, spooky place, and who (as a group) the slain were.
This is NOT the complete historic picture. (History never finishes.)
In summary, we know ‘where’, ‘when’, ‘why’, and ‘who’ (major groups).
We do not know ‘who’ (the individuals), and probably never will (I am quite happy if history proves me wrong on that account).
*
We started with only the knowledge that under present day Ho Chi Minh City is a mass grave for 1,831 unknown people. It was the result of a massacre in 1835.
We have come a long way.
*
Here is how The Creepy, Spooky Place history mystery unfolded in schematic form.
I think we have enough information now, to have a better idea of what caused the creepy, spooky place, and who (as a group) the slain were.
This is NOT the complete historic picture. (History never finishes.)
In summary, we know ‘where’, ‘when’, ‘why’, and ‘who’ (major groups).
We do not know ‘who’ (the individuals), and probably never will (I am quite happy if history proves me wrong on that account).
*
We started with only the knowledge that under present day Ho Chi Minh City is a mass grave for 1,831 unknown people. It was the result of a massacre in 1835.
We have come a long way.
*
Here is how The Creepy, Spooky Place history mystery unfolded in schematic form.
1. At first, we had little information to go on.
2. The massacre happened because of something that happened at Gia Dinh Citadel in 1833.
3. Short on crucial information for 'who' and motive.
4. CORRECTIONS and new information were crucial to starting to unravel the mystery.
5. Additional evidence made sense of somethings. 1820 Emperor Gia Long died. Viceroy Le Van Duyet becomes unpopular with new Emperor. Le Van Duyet died in 1832. The trouble starts in 1833 when Le Van Duyet's SON declares himself king of southern region.
Mini backstory: Emperor Gia Long was so impressed with Le Van Duyet that he gifted his daughter, a royal princess, to Duyet's son, Le Van Khoi. They had a son, a royal prince, Le Van Cu.
Mini backstory: Emperor Gia Long was so impressed with Le Van Duyet that he gifted his daughter, a royal princess, to Duyet's son, Le Van Khoi. They had a son, a royal prince, Le Van Cu.
6. UPDATE: 10/07/2020 And FIVE MONTHS AFTER I THOUGHT I HAD THIS MYSTERY SORTED I find another piece of critical information.
Schematic 5 needs yet more correction.It says that Le Van Duyet immediately became unpopular with the crowning of the new Emperor Minh Mang.
That was incorrect. Le Van Duyet did not become unpopular with Minh Mang until around the time of his death, as shown in the following, updated schematic.
That was incorrect. Le Van Duyet did not become unpopular with Minh Mang until around the time of his death, as shown in the following, updated schematic.
7. The KEY piece of evidence showing the revolt was a ROYAL takeover attempt.
8. Finally. The main characters, the motive, and the outcome. Solved! (pretty much).
To the observant reader, it is obvious that I have not stated WHY such a respected man like General Le Van Duyet would suddenly become so unpopular with the Emperor.
He was so unpopular that the Emperor had his tomb bound with chains for many years.
Not mentioning 'why' is intentional on my behalf. There are many versions of what happened, and what was meant to have happened. And was it all just misplaced suspicion by Emperor Minh Mang. Add to that, the different agendas which could be served with 'owning' this important story. The Catholic and French spin doctors do not help clarify the story. With the passing of time, elements are forgotten or exaggerated. Myths and legends spread.
So please forgive me if I side step this historical minefield.
He was so unpopular that the Emperor had his tomb bound with chains for many years.
Not mentioning 'why' is intentional on my behalf. There are many versions of what happened, and what was meant to have happened. And was it all just misplaced suspicion by Emperor Minh Mang. Add to that, the different agendas which could be served with 'owning' this important story. The Catholic and French spin doctors do not help clarify the story. With the passing of time, elements are forgotten or exaggerated. Myths and legends spread.
So please forgive me if I side step this historical minefield.
***
**
FYI - 1
More about the Chinese;
a bigger picture:
Chinese have been migrating south to the fertile Mekong region maybe as long as the Viets. In 1679 the first en-mass group of Ming Huong immigrants from China, were given permission to immigrate and settle in Bien Hoa, just north of present day HCMC. They quickly set up a trading port on the island of Cu Lao Pho which quickly rivaled any port in the region. It became very wealthy. It was not militarily strategic, but during the Monsoon Wars, the Tay Sons massacred the Chinese traders there. The surrounding river ran red. Tens of thousands of traders died. The Tay Sons literally ploughed the island for buried gold.
The surviving Chinese fled south west and were given permission to set up again in the original Saigon (present day Cho Lon, HCMC).
Nine years later, in 1782, the Tay Sons again massacred the successful Chinese traders. Again, Chinese died in the tens of thousands (resulting in The Plain of Tombs mentioned in the mystery). It may sound as if the Tay Sons were racist against the Chinese immigrants. That is not so. The very loyal Tay Son navy, was comprised of 100% Chinese pirates. Their army also had Chinese units. The Tay Sons knew where the money was, and they needed a lot of money to carry out their uprising.
It is telling (but not surprising) that BEFORE the emperor’s soldiers attacked the rebels in the citadel, they chose to plunder the Chinese community (a reoccurring pattern across Asia in recent times).
**
**
FYI - 1
More about the Chinese;
a bigger picture:
Chinese have been migrating south to the fertile Mekong region maybe as long as the Viets. In 1679 the first en-mass group of Ming Huong immigrants from China, were given permission to immigrate and settle in Bien Hoa, just north of present day HCMC. They quickly set up a trading port on the island of Cu Lao Pho which quickly rivaled any port in the region. It became very wealthy. It was not militarily strategic, but during the Monsoon Wars, the Tay Sons massacred the Chinese traders there. The surrounding river ran red. Tens of thousands of traders died. The Tay Sons literally ploughed the island for buried gold.
The surviving Chinese fled south west and were given permission to set up again in the original Saigon (present day Cho Lon, HCMC).
Nine years later, in 1782, the Tay Sons again massacred the successful Chinese traders. Again, Chinese died in the tens of thousands (resulting in The Plain of Tombs mentioned in the mystery). It may sound as if the Tay Sons were racist against the Chinese immigrants. That is not so. The very loyal Tay Son navy, was comprised of 100% Chinese pirates. Their army also had Chinese units. The Tay Sons knew where the money was, and they needed a lot of money to carry out their uprising.
It is telling (but not surprising) that BEFORE the emperor’s soldiers attacked the rebels in the citadel, they chose to plunder the Chinese community (a reoccurring pattern across Asia in recent times).
**
**
FYI – 2
More about the Catholics;
a bigger picture:
Catholics were NOT oppressed and persecuted; they simply had to stay within the law.
The revolt, in fact, triggered the persecution of Catholics by Emperor Minh Mang.
“Rebellion broke out in Saigon in 1833, and, when its leaders requested and received help from the Christian mission, Minh Mang was enraged and BEGAN active persecution of the Christians. He ordered the execution of the Reverend François Gagelin (Oct. 17, 1833); seven European missionaries were killed in the years to come, as were great numbers of native converts” https://www.britannica.com/biography/Minh-Mang
“François-Isidore Gagelin (10 May 1799 – 17 October 1833) was a French missionary … [who] died a martyr, and became the first French martyr of the 19th century in Vietnam” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois-Isidore_Gagelin .
So from the beginning of the reign of the Nguyens in 1802, including the complete reign of Emperor Gia Long, and then the first 13 years of Emperor Minh Mang’s rule (up to the revolt of 1833), there were NO killings of Catholics (a 31 year period).
The Catholics who joined the revolt triggered their own subsequent persecution.
FYI – 2
More about the Catholics;
a bigger picture:
Catholics were NOT oppressed and persecuted; they simply had to stay within the law.
The revolt, in fact, triggered the persecution of Catholics by Emperor Minh Mang.
“Rebellion broke out in Saigon in 1833, and, when its leaders requested and received help from the Christian mission, Minh Mang was enraged and BEGAN active persecution of the Christians. He ordered the execution of the Reverend François Gagelin (Oct. 17, 1833); seven European missionaries were killed in the years to come, as were great numbers of native converts” https://www.britannica.com/biography/Minh-Mang
“François-Isidore Gagelin (10 May 1799 – 17 October 1833) was a French missionary … [who] died a martyr, and became the first French martyr of the 19th century in Vietnam” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A7ois-Isidore_Gagelin .
So from the beginning of the reign of the Nguyens in 1802, including the complete reign of Emperor Gia Long, and then the first 13 years of Emperor Minh Mang’s rule (up to the revolt of 1833), there were NO killings of Catholics (a 31 year period).
The Catholics who joined the revolt triggered their own subsequent persecution.
**
FYI - 3
The History and Reason behind Emperor Minh Mang’s Extreme Punishment
Emperor Minh Mang was a Nguyen.
The Nguyen family has the power of resurrection.
The Tay Sons in 1777 massacred all the royal Nguyen family, except one fourteen year old.
This young boy, Nguyen Phuc An, single-handedly rebuilt the Nguyen royal line,
and after a 30-year struggle, he defeated all opponents,
and in 1802 created modern Vietnam.
That impressive royal teen was Emperor Minh Mang’s father – a powerful role model.
Minh Mang had been taught that competing royals and their descendants must be totally eradicated, least they multiply, strengthen and become a future threat.
Young Minh Mang paid attention during his history lessons,
and thus the 1835 massacre and mass burial.
FYI - 3
The History and Reason behind Emperor Minh Mang’s Extreme Punishment
Emperor Minh Mang was a Nguyen.
The Nguyen family has the power of resurrection.
The Tay Sons in 1777 massacred all the royal Nguyen family, except one fourteen year old.
This young boy, Nguyen Phuc An, single-handedly rebuilt the Nguyen royal line,
and after a 30-year struggle, he defeated all opponents,
and in 1802 created modern Vietnam.
That impressive royal teen was Emperor Minh Mang’s father – a powerful role model.
Minh Mang had been taught that competing royals and their descendants must be totally eradicated, least they multiply, strengthen and become a future threat.
Young Minh Mang paid attention during his history lessons,
and thus the 1835 massacre and mass burial.
This is one of Paul's History Mystery cases. It is a Work in Progress.
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
Can you help with new clues? If so: [email protected] Paul Rowe
THE MYSTERY OF THE CREEPY, SPOOKY PLACE part 9
14 Feb 2020
The spooky, creepy place TODAY.
Now that we know why there is a creepy, spooky place in present-day Ho Chi Minh City,
let’s find out about the place today.
This story, you might say, has moved from a look at history to a study of culture.
There are two distinct ways of ‘looking’ at this secret mass burial site,
which has been totally built over by a modern capital city.
Westerners are going to be thinking about what is under ground. Or, what did this place look like 200 years ago?
Vietnamese are going to be concerned with what is above ground; who are out of their graves, walking around causing trouble NOW?
I have often passed through the creepy, spooky district, and I have never given it a moment’s thought. On the surface, to a Westerner, it is just another suburb in Ho Chi Minh City, similar to many other suburbs in Ho Chi Minh City. No big deal. Not creepy, not spooky.
For a Westerner to get any sense of the ‘other’ ambiance,
it would be beneficial to visit the shrine in the area that caters for wandering lost spirits.
*Hint: read up as much as possible about animism and ancestor worship before visiting.
*Hint: visit a few other shrines first. There is a major difference to other shrines, which could be missed if other shrines are not used as comparisons.
The shrine is called Miếu Thành Hoàng Bổn Cảnh,
and is at 528/17 Điện Biên Phủ, Quận 10, Hồ Chí Minh City.
It is within walking distance of District One or the Back Packers area, for the adventurous.
It is not well known to tourists, but Grab Bikes know the place.
I will include a map of the area (for us old-schoolers who still read maps), or type in the address to Google maps.
Now that we know why there is a creepy, spooky place in present-day Ho Chi Minh City,
let’s find out about the place today.
This story, you might say, has moved from a look at history to a study of culture.
There are two distinct ways of ‘looking’ at this secret mass burial site,
which has been totally built over by a modern capital city.
Westerners are going to be thinking about what is under ground. Or, what did this place look like 200 years ago?
Vietnamese are going to be concerned with what is above ground; who are out of their graves, walking around causing trouble NOW?
I have often passed through the creepy, spooky district, and I have never given it a moment’s thought. On the surface, to a Westerner, it is just another suburb in Ho Chi Minh City, similar to many other suburbs in Ho Chi Minh City. No big deal. Not creepy, not spooky.
For a Westerner to get any sense of the ‘other’ ambiance,
it would be beneficial to visit the shrine in the area that caters for wandering lost spirits.
*Hint: read up as much as possible about animism and ancestor worship before visiting.
*Hint: visit a few other shrines first. There is a major difference to other shrines, which could be missed if other shrines are not used as comparisons.
The shrine is called Miếu Thành Hoàng Bổn Cảnh,
and is at 528/17 Điện Biên Phủ, Quận 10, Hồ Chí Minh City.
It is within walking distance of District One or the Back Packers area, for the adventurous.
It is not well known to tourists, but Grab Bikes know the place.
I will include a map of the area (for us old-schoolers who still read maps), or type in the address to Google maps.
May I suggest you end your exploration of the area around the round-about, with a visit to the dinh. A dinh is community space. It is not a chua or temple, even though it is full of shrines and people praying. The old documents refer to this as a dinh. These days the main title calls it a mieu. A place rest and prayer mainly for women. Males are not banned by any means.
When I visited everyone was very welcoming.
I knew to take off my shoes (even though you do not have to – again it is not a temple).
I asked if I could look around, even though I knew they would say yes.
I asked if it was ok if I took photos, even though I knew they would insist.
Vietnamese are very welcoming to people who show respect (it never fails).
*
On the surface this mieu is just another very opulent Vietnamese shrine. The craftsmanship of the building and its decore is stunning and of the highest standard. There is evidence of royal funding and attendance. The mieu is not one shrine; it is a space full of many shrines which have been inserted into the mieu over time.
One quite modest shrine table is for Viceroy Le Van Duyet who featured in our history mystery. The mieu attendants were very excited when they realised that I knew of Le Van Duyet.
When I visited everyone was very welcoming.
I knew to take off my shoes (even though you do not have to – again it is not a temple).
I asked if I could look around, even though I knew they would say yes.
I asked if it was ok if I took photos, even though I knew they would insist.
Vietnamese are very welcoming to people who show respect (it never fails).
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On the surface this mieu is just another very opulent Vietnamese shrine. The craftsmanship of the building and its decore is stunning and of the highest standard. There is evidence of royal funding and attendance. The mieu is not one shrine; it is a space full of many shrines which have been inserted into the mieu over time.
One quite modest shrine table is for Viceroy Le Van Duyet who featured in our history mystery. The mieu attendants were very excited when they realised that I knew of Le Van Duyet.
But that is not what sets this shrine apart from other shrines.
This shrine is dedicated to providing for thousands of hungry, lost, wandering spirits who haunt this area.
If these ghosts and spirits are not appeased, they become mischievous and can cause families and businesses in the area bad luck.
There are tens of thousands of these mischievous spirits. (Because there were tens of thousands of Vietnamese-Chinese traders massacred in 1777, by the Tay Sons, and 1,831 unknown souls massacred due to the Le Van Khoi revolt at the Gia Dinh Citadel.)
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One way to appease this mass of spirits is to feed them. Miếu Thành Hoàng Bổn Cảnh has been appeasing the spirits since 1802.
What sets this shrine apart from others, is the food is prepared and laid-out, ready to eat. It is laid out on tables as in any home. Hot soup in bowls, hot tea in tea pots surrounded by cups, whisky and rice wine in glasses, and plates full of fruit and vegetables.
This mieu provides a welcoming, friendly feast for any lost spirit who wanders by, and attempts to keep this suburb free from bad luck.
This shrine is dedicated to providing for thousands of hungry, lost, wandering spirits who haunt this area.
If these ghosts and spirits are not appeased, they become mischievous and can cause families and businesses in the area bad luck.
There are tens of thousands of these mischievous spirits. (Because there were tens of thousands of Vietnamese-Chinese traders massacred in 1777, by the Tay Sons, and 1,831 unknown souls massacred due to the Le Van Khoi revolt at the Gia Dinh Citadel.)
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One way to appease this mass of spirits is to feed them. Miếu Thành Hoàng Bổn Cảnh has been appeasing the spirits since 1802.
What sets this shrine apart from others, is the food is prepared and laid-out, ready to eat. It is laid out on tables as in any home. Hot soup in bowls, hot tea in tea pots surrounded by cups, whisky and rice wine in glasses, and plates full of fruit and vegetables.
This mieu provides a welcoming, friendly feast for any lost spirit who wanders by, and attempts to keep this suburb free from bad luck.
If you are visiting Ho Chi Minh City, make a point of exploring this place.
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If you are from my culture, you will find it very interesting.
If your culture believes in gods, ghosts and spirits, you might find it a little creepy and spooky.
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Enjoy the photos of the old, and very important shrine.
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If you are from my culture, you will find it very interesting.
If your culture believes in gods, ghosts and spirits, you might find it a little creepy and spooky.
**
Enjoy the photos of the old, and very important shrine.
The article that reminded me of the Le Van Khoi revolt was written by the Taoist Babe; she writes interesting (sometimes weirdish), well-researched stuff about ye olde Vietnam. https://taobabe.rocks/
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Did you enjoy this latest history mystery?
Can you add to it?
Please leave a comment: [email protected]
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Did you enjoy this latest history mystery?
Can you add to it?
Please leave a comment: [email protected]
VIETNAM HISTORY and CULTURE
and OTHER GOOD STUFF.
Post by Paul Rowe 01/02/2020, HCMC, Vietnam.
and OTHER GOOD STUFF.
Post by Paul Rowe 01/02/2020, HCMC, Vietnam.